Is New York over?

I hate to make my first post so negativ, but I have been very depressed lately over the poor selection of clubs in NYC. Like alot of people who post here (and though I have never posted b4 I have read alot) I started going out in the late 1990s (1999 to be exact.) I like many kinds of music and to go out in what used to be called a Gothic/Industrial mixed crowd, like Contempt or more recently MI7 at Pyramid.

The recent news that MI7 is closing already really set me off. It seems like there is no place for our music any more, and little support for even those nights that try, like MI7. And the fact that it has been raining 4 days and I have a crappy job dosnt help.

I guess the reason I am posting is that I feel so low and like leaving NY 4 good. It seems like alot of what I first saw and loved here is gone, and I am fighting so hard to stay, but 4 what?
I know there are not so many Industrial kids or Goths on these boards but alot of club people and of course the Mother people who helped to inspired me to move here. I was kind of hoping that someone here could argue with me that it isnt so bad as I think.

I live in Brooklyn and I sometimes go out here but there is something about Manhattan and going out in the big town that used to make me really happy. Can anyone give me a ray of light?
Original Post
If you find that the city isn't offering what you hoped it would offer, It's time for you to offer what you want.

These boards attract people who are very interested in making scenes happen--for the first time or in revival...sing your life, honey, make it happen. I can objectively testify that there is a MASSIVE hunger for goth and/or industrial celebrations. Even if it's just in your loft or a friends loft, promote it on the Motherboards and you'll develop a crowd that you can then convice to pay $5 cover in a venue that may be hungry for 100 $5 covers.

Even if not, a free and/or invitational loft goth/industrial party you host will make friends and influence people. In New York, dreams don't happen without a little work. Other side, just a little work, and your dreams will happen easier than you'd imagine.

Just a Thought,
Addison
There are problems with NY right now. One of the most glaring is the rising lethargy. Go out and Do it!! get fired up Please. Many of us would go to a good Goth Industrial party. Di and I would. Many of the jewels on the MB's have had long runs. Look at Sweeties Extra Cheese party. Lex does a great one at idewild. Though these are not what you are looking for, they attract a crowd. Start small and build. Do a one-off. Co-operate with others and you can produce a great night.

Hey post an idea here and perhaps someone will team up with you.

Great luck!!

T
deedee,
I'm with these guys. Don't give up yet. The sun WILL come out again (and the drought will be over!) Try something on a small scale like Drama Queen suggested. (By the way... if Ted & Di do come to your party the bar will rule! Two of the most generous people you will ever meet)
Last night I went to Derrick in a Dress' night "Tell Tale" (paid the $5) then went to Mr. Joe's party (paid the $5 VIP price) and had a very satisfying night out. IT CAN BE DONE! Jackie 60 started with about 30 people. We charged everyone $5. They were very happy to pay just to have a place to go. Look at Cheez Whiz... $5 got you some of the best shows in New York. Dry those tears.
But if you find another place to go let me know.
deedee - I moved here for the same reason you did and hey! I was moved to jump in, and help stir the pot myself. Keep going out; your presence is as vital as the ones throwing the party. Come introduce yourself - come out to Homocorps at CBGB's on Dec. 7 for some GREAT alternative music and party people. Check out Vulgaras.

You may want to contact TonyaKnudsen - one of the most energetic and enthusiastic people on the Motherboards (see Artmaker); she's a tigress when it comes to collaboration.
Cheers DeeDee!

There is a very real cycle to nature itself at play currently, things must die for the new to sprout forth. (And death in this town, like everything else is over-kill!) I promise you, 19 year-olds are just as hungry for sonic electronic hardcore penetration now as much as, if not more than, they ever have been.

Mi7 is closed, not due to bad attendance, attendence was growing. It had three other strikes against it's future there: Club management geared towards profit-without need for growth. Competetiveness and vindictiveness between promoters. (The concept of fighting fair in New York needs applauded, while the other needs guidance. Good news, the goth/industrial labels are working hard to improve these matters.) And Vision, specifically with regards to Mi7, the creator has a vision. He's not one to compromise the farm just to earn a buck. Mi7 will most likely fair better in finding a new home one, that can accommodate 19+.

Personally I envision a dynamo party to happen in Greenpoint for several reasons. But we'll see ...

Addition to all this -- guess what, the sound is changing, it's simplifying becoming more melodic, girls are invading the forefronts (even encouraged by the likes of KMFDM) and noize, real noize is clanging on the other end of the spectrum. You are most welcome and encouraged to join in the N|dustrial Novae| topic in ArtMaker. Enthusiam for the subject matter and growing a connected community is esential to a club's survival in these modern times. And small clubs kick ass! DJ Saint Janes did short-lived stellar party sometime back called Rubber Revenge, would pick his brain on how he made that happen.

And Ted is right, if you came to partake and not generate, the city is a little maxed on vampires vs. heros ratio at the moment (no pun intended). But this is the cycle of death is it not? I loved your post and will do everything I can to encourage your interest in the subject (except can't tolerate crying too much over what things are not). Ask and I shall do what I can. Lastly aside from do-ers - supporters are needed, and, lovers. For every doer - one adoring face must exist in the crowd so encouraging the doer is inspired to go the extra mile. Personally, I'm so over excited about the future here I can not and will not contain myself!.

Did you go btw to Mi7? Why? Why not? Be honest. feedback is needed! (you've said so yourself in the premise of this thread) What do you think is cool? Or is it now spelled Kool?

DramaQueen -- Where is your FACE?
And welcome to the Motherboards, officially. I'm glad you lurked a bit before your first post - it was certainly very heartfelt and really touched a nerve.

I was afraid that everyone was going to suggest that you do a party, because I know that isn't the answer for everyone.

Though I only made it to MI7 twice (first under the prodding of our beloved Tonya K. and the second time because I had liked the vibe so much)
I too was upset that it was going. But the truth is that the Pyramid management has been notoriously impossible to collaborate with for many years now, and I was surprised that anything that good was even beginning there at all, especially on a Saturday night. So, this really could have happened five years ago, in the now-golden late nineties, and isnt really as much of a sign of the times as it might look.

Lastly, I'm not 100% sure that you SHOULD stay in New York. As you may know many members of the Mother tribe have now scattered, which is one of the reasons why the Boards have been such a hit. If I was in my early twenties and just coming to New York right now, I'm not sure I would have stayed around. Maybe, but other cities, from New Orleans and Portland to Prague, have looked mighty inviting for years.

I'll sign off now and let others pick up this conversation, and ask you also if we have ever met?
Thank you so much for all your words and hugs. Im glad to have come out from my lurking and read this.

Your right Chi Chi im not a party giver. It takes me months to even say hi to people. No we never met but i was lucky enught to be taken to clickndrag first on new years 1999 and again once or 2x.

Yes TonyaKnudson i did go to MI7 not every week bcause of $ but the opening and one other nite. The main reeson besides $ that i didnt go more is my frinds are 19 and it was 21+.

so again thanks everybody for the hope + love. smile
Oh, I understand and have nothing to offer in the way of actually finding a permanent balls-out funfest. However, I am finding it fun now to go to random parties, some big, some small, and getting sloshy with strangers (drunk, not slutty). You would be amazed at how entertaining it can be. As you well know, we can only look forward to only a couple of very exciting parties each month, the ones where you actually plan on what to wear, the rest is filler. If you made it to the Halloween bash, you can imagine what kind of staple the regular party had become to all of us (oh, Daddy's DJing and Mommy and Hattie's MCing brought an ache in my heart longing for home...), but, c'est la vie, oui? You know what? It's a whole 'nother scene, and ten years from now, some kid is gonna ask you, "Were you on the Boards when they first came out? I heard it was so VERY cyber-edge. There's nothing like that now; every one of the virtuclubs are forever clogged with bridge and tunnel trash screwing up the vibe with their crappy fibre-optic." Or something like that. Keep on truckin'. And, if you ever wanna go out randomly, email me, that goes for all of you. cool
Firstly let me say that i do think it IS fab how all the ole Jackie crowd have gathered on these boards.... its a great support group, it's also a wonderful forum for discussion/ideas/politics and general world domination! But this is all virtual and we all could (and can)be anywhere.... that's how i feel about NYC... what Betty says is right about making your own fun... and NYC is still a fab place where you can seek out allot of scenes that just don't exist in Kansas! NYC is also the only place where i can make enough money in an easy way to have a decent standard of living.... but i hate more and more the jingoism of this country which is now just xenophobia and paranoia... plus for "the land of the free" NYC is so conservative... from no dancin in the bars to no gays in the parade... to bans on freedom to travel to Cuba...it grinds me down and makes me want to leave.
I think the Era of Jackie 60 was a wonderful time for NYC... when the meat packin district ws just that. It's long since gone and i think might resurge once we have hit another low (eg another wall st crash or terrorist attack)... but don't hold ya breathe.... Defo go seek out other scenes and places.. lend yourself to other stuff and it is often suprising how much fun u can have (believe me... i went to see a friggin B'way show the other day The Lion King... went kickin and screaming...but came out loving it - much to my chagrin!). I was in London all last wk and believe me there ain't anything happening there...
either... stay in NYC to make the Benjamins..but keep the cash to travel freely! (And buy Betty D a beer!)...I say we ALL move to Chiapas! (* Chiapas ...mexican area controlled by an alternative coalitiion, a no-go area for the Government..anarchist running a socialist state ..which promotes freedom of speech, beliefs and sexuality! Seek it out... I'm ready to move!)
and I grew up here, I was born in the Bronx and pretty much grew up here. I learned that its all about the buzz, if you want something done start it, or encourage others to start it. For a long time I wanted to be involved with some sortave Burlesque group, I wanted to start one, but had no idea how, no w there are a few and I can be alittle choosy. There are many things I wanna start but dont have the head stregth to do it right now. I dont believe that leaving N.Y. is the answer, yes its a tough place to live but if things arent hard they are boring(all puns intended). Like Daddy said Jackie 60 was started with just 30 people. and yes there is alot of the virtual chat and such but when the parties start the fun is rolling the creative juices are flowing and its quite amazing. I have been so inspiried since I started going to the Jackie 60 parties. I couldnt even tell you how intimidated I was at first tho. I was very shy before, but now I live the way I do and go out the way I do and would kill for my own party! Lets rock nyc now!~
And oddly enough, my mailing list is called Amber Ray of light...
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/amberrayoflight
Please join...I always have something going on and I would be happy to talk, one on one, with you about some interesting events...
I know a handful of other things you might like...
I just moved here, not yet a year ago, and have felt the same...Now I am really working hard to get a sense of community by dabbling in many different scenes...
There is hope...I am trying to create it and then what it creates...A MIndBlowing wonderful experience!
Ny is full of nooks and crannies...
Its like a real live "legend of link" video game ...with hidden prizes and enemies to dodge and amazing other worldly creatures to learn from and share with.
I love going out almost every night and searching out all the different scenes and little art openings and parties, you would be amazed to see how much you find in versatility.
The more you give the more you get.
I like to make my own scenes sometimes, too.
So many hearts aching to be set free...I am unlocking them all if I have the power to...I feel this Uncontrolable need to Bring sensationalism to the table!!!
After all, It starts with our senses, we choose our own lives and realities based on our senses.
So lets see some choices going on...
I might be willing to help start up a party...
We may need some more, soon.
But at Any rate, KIT and let me know what you are looking for...
Ciao.

PS
BtW, I love ya ChiChi, But I have to disagree with the New Orleans thing, and anywhere else for that matter...
I lived in NOLA and it wasn't good at all...It's all touristy and a huge splotch of drug addicts and homebodies who aren't really doing anything...
I lived on Bourbon for awhile and I had to leave of Boredom.
It's an extremely transient place, so people with a real mission don't seem to stay very long.
I can't think of any big names coming out of New Orleans, either. (not that it matters too much)
All the cool people I met, left before I did, and the events for our subcultures seemed to be few and far between with a few regular places to choose from that got super boring, super quick...
I think the fact that NY changes so much is part of what makes it so exciting.
And European cities?!
Ah, I love Europe.
Fun to explore, but I am sure they would simmer down too if you were there long enough.
I love NYC, I finally feel like I am at home!
Thanks to Mama ChiChi and Daddy Johnny and all the amazing and beautiful critters in this huge Kingdom of ours.
This type of thread almost brings a tear to my eye.

[This message was edited by Amber Ray on 11-14-02 at 04:21 PM.]
We do live in a dying city.

And we've had to become experts at creating our own fun.

If WE can manage to have fun in Cincinnati, Ohio...

smile

We TOTALLY relate to the making good money to travel comment, and the having one good event to look forward to comment (with the rest being filler) And the trying new things... We have fun doing some of the STUPIDEST things smile

To either comfort you (hopefully not to bring you more down) the Gothic/Industrial scene is not doing very well in many places in the US, not just NYC. It seems to have become stagnant and when that happens, people lose interest.

We recently both just got raises... making it even less likely that we'll find jobs worth moving away for...

So, we're here for a while, and we're just so sick of the fact that we HAVE to go out of town for a good night out, so we decided to start off with a one-off night at the local Gothic/Industrial club down here:

http://www.warehouse1313vine.com

They've been sparsely populated since our riots last year, and are really excited about it. The owner really values marketing and advertising and knows that if word gets out, the crowd will show.

I'm sure that's the case up there also. There have to be places that are just limping along and want some CPR.

We haven't hosted a night in our hometown for 3 years... We're a bit nervous, we don't know how it's going to go, or if people will even get into it, but what will it hurt to at least give it a chance? The owner is already talking about a regular event...

You may not be a party thrower, but you do know what it takes to create a good night out. You just need to find a partner or two to fill in for the things that you can't/don't like to do. You'd be really surprised about how many things fall into place when there is one person with a vision and other people willing to work to make that vision come to life.

An exciting idea has "legs" it is birthed and takes a few tentative steps, starts walking and then starts running. It just takes someone to give it that first breath of life.

From the looks of it, you've got quite a few people interested already smile

XXXOOO
Satori
I would share the sentiments of all who posted answers to this interesting topic.

I've said before on these Boards how it bothers me at times that people constantly complain about New York being "dead". There are always things going on here and there still are. These days there are less choices than in the past and you have to look harder, but cool stuff is out there.

I just got back from Amsterdam and Berlin, two cities known for liberal and/or decadent nightlife scenes. Over the past couple of years Berlin in particular has been touted by many here in the U.S. as the "New York City of Europe" and the new epicenter for experimental art and club culture.

It is certainly true that you have much more freedom in those cities in terms of what you can get away with (i.e. public sex, drugs, etc) and New York certainly has lost that aspect of its nightlife. But in terms of performance, creativity and the club productions themselves .... I still think New York is better and overall has more to offer, in spite of Guiliani and everything. (btw - thanks Ted for the compliment on my little monthly party! please come back, next time I'll buy you a drink) And in any case I certainly wouldn't say those cities are BETTER than New York, no way. It was really good to get out of town and get perspective.

Also, as to goth/industrial scene in particular ... isn't there a party called Funhouse on Friday nights at Flamingo East or some other East Village venue? I heard about it a couple of months ago but have not had a chance to make it by .... might be worth checking out.
What you said Lex...

I think historically NY has more staying power than any other city in the world. Even if we're in a "Down" period, keep in mind that NYC is good for at least one legendary club, scene or movement per decade.

Consider the following:
Stonewall
Studio 54
Limelight
Jackie
Save the Robots...

I'm sure the more experienced in our crew could add to this list, but its a start.

It's not only early in the current decade, its pretty early in the century. I think looking back 10 years from now we'll be pretty happy with whats been accomplished.

Just the calm before the storm....
Lex wrote;

"Also, as to goth/industrial scene in particular ... isn't there a party called Funhouse on Friday nights at Flamingo East or some other East Village venue?"

Yes, exactly. Friday nights at Flamingo East. I believe it's at 2nd Ave & 13th St. Ted-n-Di have been known to frequent.
Not really a goth party goer myself, I just had to add my humble opinion here. Whenever I start to grow weary of the choices that are given me in New York, I remember what life was like in Ohio, and suddenly I kiss the earth in gratitude that I live here. I always find more and more great things to go to (so much in fact, that i gave up my day job to produce parties and events)- and find that when I find that something is lacking, I try to fill the gap myself by creating it. Although I agree that this is not a solution for everybody.
I am happy to be a party of these boards, too!
Right now, for example, we have the ElectroClash scene which has strong roots across the river in Williamsburg and is now spreading into a worldwide musical movement. So even now in this supposedly "slow" time, New York is still on the cutting edge of music, fashion and club culture.
It seemed in the past couple of years that the classic big New York club had gone the way of the dinosaur. But last night I went to the opening of the new Limelight, now called Estate. While I wasn't so impressed with the new decor, I think it's great that things are opening again. In the coming months a branch of Crobar (already legendary in Chicago and Miami) is coming here too. Could a new era of big clubs be upon us?
I'm of several minds on the question, "Is NYC over?"

The first is, yeah, a big club filled with interesting people is a lotta fun. But where have all the interesting people gone? I simply don't think that NYC has as many of them today as it did once upon a time. The younger generation is fraught with so much store-bought cool, and while there are some bona fide geniuses on the rise, the volume of genuine creativity and verve seems to have dwindled dramatically since the 80s, replaced by an H&M/Gap/Urban Outfitter's demographic for the most part.

Maybe I'm just older and slower, (maybe?), but I need to be on methalenedioxymethamphetamines to get into anything that goes THUMPtssTHUMPtssTHUMPtss for nine hours...and I've got better uses for that molocule than to blow my brains cells on a single night out. I've found that drinking booze does not mix well with a repetitive beat, and besides, the price of a cocktail at the bigger NYC clubs costs as much as a down payment on a car.

THUMPtssTHUMPtssTHUMPtssTHUMPtss......as far as I'm concerned, the redundancy inherant to most techno music has contributed to a large redundancy in the rave generation's spirit. It is reflected thematically throughout its culture. While this is admittedly a total generalism with the usual level of exception, what the crowd demands it will receive, and that's what is on the menu far too often. The soup du jour is simply yesterday's stretched stock, reheated and served up to people with little taste for anything else.

That said, my second thought is to admit that I have grown accustomed to, and learned to enjoy, being a flashy sort of anomoly amongst the crowd at places such as WH, at concerts, on the avenue, in the subway. It is impressive how well-received a little bit of effort is these days within the generic throng, tho frankly, with that in mind, it's also noted that this is generally all it takes, too: a -little- bit of effort. For the most part, a grand overture is lost on the masses, and subsequently, my own level of satisfaction is met on a much lower level than it once did. Most of the time all I need to feel like my need to exceed is a little bit of shoe, a little bit of paint, a little bit of hair. 90% of the neanderthals at Webster Hall look like they came straight from work. The folks who inspire me, like Brandon, Sabrina, Rose, Formika and Miss Understood, they raise the bar for the rest of us, they carry the torch in an ever-darkening night. Shit, that uberfreak Dresscode Ford still throws the curve off completely.

I think back to big club Twilo which decided in its brilliance that it was a good idea to dismiss Amanda and Sophia. How telling that was of the general state of decay, how the overall milieu of NYC nightlife has become homogenized and standardized, dumbed-down to fit the lowest common denominator. I'll never forget the protest or how its' participants were looking finer by far on thier side of the street than any of the chumps dropping 20's on Twilo's side.

Big clubs as they are *can* be fun, but the expectations must be altered tremendously these days. You've got to hit it with the understanding that you're not going to go and raise the caliber of the night as much as be a spectacle, and often an underappreciated one. Fotunately there are always going to be intrepid souls with integrity, taste and grit who make the effort and get shit happening for themselves, regadless of the impact. They do it for themselves, the right people respond, and the wrong don't even register on the radar. To them, bravo, please don't stop.

There is also the answer of smaller clubs and hush-hush parties off the beaten path where the real cool stuff beats off to itself in reduced, if concentrated numbers. John Street, Happy Ending, Mile High Club, Cheez Whiz and more such gems stand with all things Jackie on the ring of true NYC underground spirit.

[ed - saying this, I feel all patriotic, like if there was some kinda boheme flag I'd salute, hand on heart or some shit like that. Alas, I'm a sentimental dingbat that way.]

Nevertheless, culture engines are a fickle dynamic, never idling for long. As we move back into a straight-laced republican regime, I'm hopeful that the nightlife will respond in kind. In spite of Bloomberg's continuance of Giuliani's raping of NYC nightlife and David Rabin's cranial-rectal inversion, the pendulum always swings both ways, (and so do a lot of you fuckers).

While the RAVE act and the attitude behind it presents a newer and uglier challenge to making nightlife utopia, everything seems to hinge upon the whim of the demand. Many will recall the state of things during the Reagan administration, how *popping* shit was in the clubs back then. It was almost like the uglier things were during the day, the more beautiful it was at night by some kind of retaliatory effect. Given the thrall of the Dubya era these days, is it too unrealistic to expect a full-tilt backlash in the clubland domain?

Consider the relocation/transformation of Cheez Whiz into Star Tartare, back in the meat packing district. It bodes well, and as a watcher of omens, I'm reading this as a very potent sign that things may be coming full-circle. Hell, garage rock is mainstream now, and the promise of electroclash marries the energy of ass kicking rock to the sensibility of the disco. The next wave has already begun, and it wants to replace THUMPtssTHUMPtssTHUMPtss with a big, fat GROWL and a whole lot of BANG.
How the hell can that be a bad thing?
Oddly in my looking for this topic to reply (my mind admittedly Elsewhere), I landed on a very interesting post in Studio 54 by Miss ChiChi. I think the article is well worth a read and very much related to this subject.

Minerva your post speaks eras of wisdom (I am in awe truly). There is real truth in all of your words, so easy to travel along with each beat, save this one thing I must counter-culture: the description of alt youth. They are indeed 'mad freaks about' and 'wild, genderfried, wired aliens' -- but that's a whole lot of something truly fascinating. And no, they just don't hang in the EV all the time anymore and I'm pretty sure they are not "Club Kids" at all. And raves, well, that's something they grow out of now about the time they hit 18-19.

Media/the web/art/fashion--friendship (tied in groups of 3-8 they do not venture off one without another) and they are "punks who wash their hands". Sure they have issues -- they ARE a bit weary, they take A LOT MORE in with every glance than any generation before it ever has had to. And with no single one issue (yet) of their generation surmountable enough to bring them together, they seem anonymous drones in cell-shock. But if you stop and watch them, you'd be amazed.

I had several spinning me round an Elctroclash floor at 3am this morning to a disco/goth version of The NeverEnding Story Theme Song (and I was living, especially when at the end of the night a brave skunk-haired girl the size of my knee offered a meek hello to me). And do they shine with "effort" i.e. Decadance? They are just beginning too ... you gotta see my FuckFashionFilm shot a month ago at the DollHaus. Freaks abound and unwound ... taking it all above and beyond while bringing it back around.

We have ta go rockin' one night in the Burg, gotta take ya round Sweetwater, Luxx and ... Speaking of girls I gotta ask out, Betty Domination, you up still for taking in Betty Crow's show? Or am I too late to get in on that one? been busy since your post, but I'm taking a few days to dance and socialize, and oh yeah Soft Cell this weekend as well as a big Geico banquet, sunday. Is nightlife dead? This is the first time in 8 years I've been interested enough to actually get out and get involved with everything that is going on. Tunnel Vision - big asset, BTW, in the wild and wired world of 2002. Focus and Search capabilities, ability to switch from platform to platform, again skills I attribute to finding and fulfilling great parties and nightlife. Personally, I've never liked the BIG clubs, just the cool ones (occassionally they were big).
Minerva, your post was brilliant as always. (Ted, I agree with your post as well ... though on the subject of WH I must submit an official "no comment" for reasons I won't bother to go into).

You touched on many things I've felt myself about club culture and New York in general. It is definately true that, barring a few exceptions, historically big clubs don't draw the most interesting crowds, due primarily to the high cost of running a large space which in turn makes big club management far less discriminatory in terms of who gets in and who doesn't. Big clubs serve as entertainment for the masses, certainly. But the best of the big clubs always offered some salt of the earth and geniuses mixed in with the masses, and in theory could serve a kind of spectacle that is not really possible in smaller venues. My basic point about the return of big clubs was that the "big club experience" has always been an integral part of New York's nightlife, right alongside the smaller and medium-sized spaces where underground and cutting-edge movements happen, and that tradition deserves to continue. Back in the day New York was filled with tons of clubs of ALL sizes, both mainstream and underground, and every night the clubs were filled ... everybody went out and people from all over the world came here to go out. I had many great experiences at big clubs - Love Machine at the Palladium, the old Sound Factory (which later became Twilo), Club USA and Disco 2000 at Limelight, etc. The options were endless.

A variety of factors changed that. Guiliani's anti-club policies, which succeeded in closing many establishments while simultaneously scaring away nightlife tourists, was one factor. The 90s real estate/development explosion was another factor, transforming formerly industrial areas into residential neighborhoods. I always felt the AIDS crisis played a role as well, since a large number of the most imaginative, brilliant people who gave New York's scene its color and vibrancy died, leaving straight-laced, boring, normal people who lacked the same level of talent and creativity to carry on their places. Less measurable elements, like the Internet (which some argue make people less like to go out and socialize in general) are perhaps other factors.
And so, bit by bit, the big clubs became by and large extinct. And that is why I think it's a good thing big clubs are opening again, but it's a sign people are going out again in larger numbers.

BTW, I actually liked Twilo. It wasn't something I'd do frequently (I've always preferred the more intimate social interaction at smaller and medium-sized spaces), but once in a while was cool. The B&T there I felt was in general much friendlier to me than at other big places, hence the popularity of people like Amanda and Sophia. As for what happened to them, of course I think their firing was completely disgraceful and wrong and I fully support their lawsuit against the Twilo management. But club jobs have always been easy come-easy go for everyone involved and many people get unceremoniously dumped for equally stupid, insane reasons. Amanda and Sophia were also given 4 + years of employment before they were fired, which is a pretty good run. The club world is sleazy is precarious, which is good and bad at the same time.
As a kind of therapeutic machine for universal maintanence these boards were the best location to broach the question that is the topic of this particular forum.

For myself personally the objective in attending, and by attending thereby contributing, to a good party is to get out of control. Most of the really intense club parties mentioned here so far really offered that wide open sense of being kind of libration zones. The main two categories of answers to the problem of the club party scene going soft - to make your own thing happen or to move to another city, with all due respect to the suggestors of those answers, are quantitative responses to the problem that bring their own proportions of drawbacks. I'm not saying both answers could not be fulfilling (though I really lean towards making your own thing happen over moving out). Leaving NYC really means the big adventure of changing your life again and really I think Lex is very right with saying the types of performance productions and over all creativity that still yet reign here have it over the other major crazyopolises most people think of (Moscow is probably the only Euro destination that has totally whacked out liberation zones going on right now and trying to set your life up there is well, not for the even marginally practical-minded at the moment). I would just sum up slightly differently what many here have been saying, that this city is always mutating, constantly decaying and building up simultaneously, and the club parties that live during any one era are in part a response and engine of that process. So by its very nature the enjoyment of what the city has to offer is a transitory exercise that necessitates that one moves around and through the scene experiencing. If I experience even one totally live person during a foray into the current scene I feel completely optimistic about it even when I have the general sense the scene is in a diminshed mode at present.
Great post, Seven! You must be related to Seven of Nine, one my favorite Star Trek characters. Fierce!

Also I forgot to mention that throwing parties is not the answer for everyone. If you are such a person, then just keep going out and supporting. That's what it's all about.
Since I have been here, I have seen parties come and go and seen People come in and go out of scenes...
I think this is somewhat normal for NYC but I also feel that longing.
Like something isnt quite right.
I am trying to keep my eye on everything and get happily and ardently involved as much as I can....
Does anyone need me to help with anything?
The networking can make me scatter-brained.
So Much to keep track of...
But I need to be connected to live!
Esspecially in the wonderland That is my home.
Ya... Listen to that Lexy And Miss Tanya....
There is alot of love from many, many more amazing people in this string of posts.
I haven't got a terribly solid plan, yet.
But watch out...Lexy's right...Ima comin'.....
(Muah ha ha.)
Those in the know do know.
Once I put my ego and the baby doll references into context.
Was completely taken with momentous thrall for Marc Almond's new Soft Cell number Sunday Night at the Roxy. During which I had caught images of most of you posting to this topic.

I don't think BTW the visuals were generated by myself. E-ffecting this dialogue is.

Dee Dee - who we have to thank, you wouldn't by any chance happen to be the one who the opening night of MI7 with adept dancefloor skill ever so specifically rubbed my shoulder for a second too long? Most curious about this one who came in white I am.

Recommended listening for this dialogue "Cruelty Without Beauty" CD containing "Monoculture" video.
Well it would seem that the advent of the
"super clubs" is upon NYC. The opening of
the new and improved Estate, while not as
interiorly large as it used to be..it looks
like the changing of the guard is upon us.
How many venues have just spent their/your
dollars on renovating/ updating their interiors
for club goers? Hush now Discotheque, Mint
formerly Chaos and waaay back The Bank? All
this re-invention..to rejuvinate your good
time and surroundings.
Yes, Crobar is going to be massive in size,
liken it to Exit if you would...and the
new Buddha Bar soon to be opened in the flower
district will transport you to the venue
back in Paris.
How can promotors give you what you want
when clubs now sock you with high bar
guarantees,insist on over 18 age status and
really are only interested in the "bridge &
tunnel" set or the up-town "slummers" who
really do spend all their money on the bar?
You'll find what you're looking for in
smaller venues...if they can hold out long
enough to start a trend. Promotors for goth,
electro and industrial are now watered down
to one or two venues that keep changing. You'll
find Dj's from the soon to be defunct Gomorrah
posse at Sapphire,Webster Hall,Remote, CBGB's
Gallery, Slipper Room,Bat cave....LI & so on.
Where is everyone going now? Are promotors
finding that holding an event once a month
easier than fleshing out a new theme each week?
Hopefully we'll all be dragging our well
heeled stylish derriers to some of these newer
venues soon....where everybody knows your name!
The new Buddha bar is slated to open @
Feb or march...west side @ 18th or 19th. Crobar
is slated for a Feb. opening but will more
likely open in March.
The next Black & Blue Ball is tentatively
booked for Crobar. It;s the old Mesmer studio
location on west 28th street. It's massive
in size.
I´d like to add my thanks to everyone who came out on Friday. I´ve been jetting around Spain so was unable to be there in person, but I´ll have some new mile-high stories to share at this month´s installment.

The world just keeps getting smaller and smaller each time i travel... and this trip has proved it twice, so far. In Madrid, I picked up the gay rag and saw none other than NYC´s own W.I.T. inside the front cover. So random! One of my favorite electro bands, produced by genius Larry T., W.I.T. are on a european electroclash tour. I missed their madrid show, but caught up with them in Barcelona, where they played to a nearly sold-out crowd at a venue just slightly smaller than Irving Plaza...pretty amazing. they´re off to Germany this week. The next night, as per my usual, I went to a local gaybar - a real bee´s nest of faggotry - to get smashed before hitting the clubs... and I ran into NY nightlife fixture DJ Jeffo, who is record-store hopping his way across europe. Small world indeed. Or maybe it´s that we world-wise new yorkers have just got to keep movin...

[This message was edited by Michael Madison on 12-04-02 at 10:56 AM.]

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