Party Monster Michael Alig (part 2)

You probably are the only person other than myself who liked the movie, but I'm a criminologist and have a high tolerance for hideous behavior. That would include that of the directors and producers of this sludge, who might have made a film that commented responsibly not only upon the trivial drug-addled cretin who was Michael Alig, but the context in which he blossomed and prospered, to wit, NYC nightlife. Even therein he was not what you would call a popular guy. Just because a murder is dolled up in glitter and interesting music, hons, it's still death and destruction, and it's NOT fiction.

More informative and interesting is the documentary that came out before Michael Alig was even incarcerated, which might also be called "Party Monster." (Someone please correct me on this.) In that, you may thrill to the ultimate *shock value* of seeing M.A. himself being interviewed about Angel, and he's rolling his eyes and giggling and confessing on camera... no-one took it seriously then. No - someone's confessing to murder, and his society just think he's trying to show off.

I don't think it's being NUMB that is the issue, Bobby. I think it is a total skew on what is considered right and wrong. The issue is that there is no rudder ... possibly even no conscience at all.

ZAZ and SAT: You are true rulers. Your perspective is refreshing and enlightened and it proves that there is hope for the youth of America.
Yes, many of us knew both Michael and Angel and many of us watched the horror unfold at the time. It always puzzles me that that particular generation somehow missed the very point that there was a murder involved. It makes you wonder if we've all been sandpapered raw to the point where we just don't feel anything anymore. It might very well be time to start sensitizing ourselves again so that we are able to feel something real and not just focus on fashion and music and drugs and sex. Life has so much more to offer. Not that there is anything wrong with those forementioned things. I have enjoyed all of them to excess but somehow my heart is still open to compassion and sympathy and even after 53 years I am still in touch with what's really valuable and important in life. The rest is just icing on the cake.

Bobby, *blushing* that means a lot coming from you.

Missy, Chi Chi started this topic when Michael Wilkinson contacted her asking if anyone in her network had costumes they wanted to loan to the movie. So the topic actually pre-dates the feature film production by a couple months, so the topic has never been really well defined.

Hatches, I didn't read that description. JEEEZUS WTF????????

Stan, we agree with you. The directors should stick with documentaries. We've noticed them in credits for all sorts of shows. They are reponsible for the "Show Dog Moms and Dads" show on Bravo which is fucking hysterical. They've also done some Sex shows for HBO that are funny too.

XXXOOO
Satori

Hey guys I would like to welcome everyone who is interested in finding out more about Michael Alig, Club Kid night life, and anything about club kid days during the hey day of Limelight,Club USA, Tunnel,etc to check out:

www.groups.yahoo.com/group/michaelaligsupport

Let's see...what is there to learn about Michael Alig? That he was a drugged out self centered pedophile with no morals and a potential to corrupt young innocent people if he thought it would somehow boost his place in his own egotistical mind. He not only belongs in prison but should stay there until he's as old and ugly
as the people he loved to make fun of. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I would say we should just kill this thread, except it has a lot educational value.

Zazoo & I get lots of emails from people wanting more information about Michael because we participated in the feature film (rented out parts of costumes/shoes and were extras)and we pop up a lot on searches.

These are ALMOST ALWAYS kids under the age of 20 just discovering ways to express themselves outside of the mainstream alternative circles. (i.e. "Hot Topic" goths)

I've had a 15 year old girl from Louisville, KY email to say that her parents are sending her to therapy because she's bisexual, and is in with her school's alternative crowd. She identifies with the story of being picked on in a small town, and being able to escape to NYC and become whatever she wants. Only one example, but the plot is always the same.

I always patiently explain that there are a ton of other sources of inspiration for this kind of expression, people who made/make even the most jaded take notice such as The Warhol Factory members (esp. Jackie, Holly and Candy) Divine, The Cockettes, Steve Strange, Boy George, Nina Hagen, Leigh Bowery/Trojan, Klaus Nomi, Joey Arias, The Legendary Children of the Balls... people who took what was actually the status quo and turned it on it's head or warped it in such a way that people had to create a new category for it. (The list above is not free from drug adictions, and other self destructive issues, but as far as I've heard none of them killed their friends.)

We also point out that dressing up to party has been around since the first group put feathers in their hair, smeared colored mud on their faces and danced around the fire to celebrate not being killed by a neighboring tribe. (Was anyone here there? I heard it was great)

One of two things happen at about a 50/50 rate #1 They disregard what we have to say out the immature need to be right, and we never hear from them again. #2 They actually go out and do the research and get back to us telling us that they can't wait to get started on their own projects.

Now that The Motherboards are open to spider searches, we have to know that more and more of these kids are going to start finding us, even though there is a lot of anger, we should at least give them the 50/50 chance to open up their eyes to the true legends.

XXXOOO
Satori

PLEASE NOTE: Anyone reading this who is not familiar with the community on The Motherboards, or did not bother to read the thread BEFORE posting, there are people on here that knew both Michael and Angel. (not us) And if you can't understand that people would be upset that you are blindly idolizing someone who killed someone they know, then you are missing a crucial thing called Empathy.

quote:

S'tan wrote:
More informative and interesting is the documentary that came out before Michael Alig was even incarcerated, which might also be called "Party Monster." (Someone please correct me on this.)

Yes, you are correct. This is what you are refering to I believe; rental available at TLA on 8th St. (this is where I rented it from).

> a potential to corrupt young innocent people

I believe this is a 2 way street, the corruptor and the one letting himself being corrupted, just to put things straight.
Also, I agree, as much as Club Kids have some appeal for freedom and invention, a trip to the local museum should put them in the right place, no offense. Alig vs. Picasso? I know who's the real freak!

Thanks for the link to the original "Party Monster!" I want to look at it again.
Daddy, weren't you interviewed in it?

Probably, I'm such a media whore.

Like we couldn't tell from your icon.

I liked the movie. I think I may had heard of Michael Alig before on American Justice or something. I rented it mainly because I wanted to see the club costumes and make up. I thought it would be a little more telling about NYC club life back then.
Around 1996 the raves came to Detroit I was there in my "fat pants" (thank God I burned them) taking x and dancin'. KEOKI was huge here at the time. Even at 17 it seemed fake like we were trying to imitate something that came before us. It was fun and being from Michigan NYC is like dream valley when you're young, it's where everything cool starts and where all the action is.
Anyway, I wanted to see the movie thinking those parties were where our parties came from. I got more than I thought I was getting. First thing this movie is in the comedy section..... WHAT? Someone died, someone killed someone else because of drugs and status and it's in the comedy section? I found it both fun and heartbreaking at the same time. After I watched the movie I bought the book. I loved the book, but in the pit of my stomach feel bad for loving it, feel bad that it made me laugh at parts.
It's all sad. The worst part are these crazy insane people with the "Michael Alig support group" are you kidding? Is someone supporting Angel's family?
I still want to read more about NYC's night life. Studio 54 etc. If any one has read any good books about the subject I would appreciate suggestions. Leave sad murder books out. THANX.
I would like to see the original Party Monster to see some of you in it. I need to wait awhile though, because this movie disturbed me.
I over indulged in drugs when I was younger and now I need to take a xanax before I see or read anything about coke, x, heroin, etc..
Don't get me wrong I'm not one of those crazy your body is a temple reformists, my body just can't take anymore.

I think about this subject from time to time...and I actually get alot of young wannabe Party monsters who are just mystified by the whole thing...asing me if I know Michael and such...
(Which I dont...I came along way too late, but still...)
I have a suspicion that that crew's over indulgence and darkness may have ruined the era of people expressing themselves through dressing up outrageously.(atleast for the time being).
I came to NYC and it was hard to find anyone who made much an effort besides The Mother Crew, to dress up.

Im Mad at the people who wear the costumes but really dont understand what kind of a motion, it is.

To me it is ceremonial garb...

I rememebr one of my first spiritual experiences associated with costumes was when i went to a Native American Pow wow, and saw all of the colors, and feathers and energy that was channeled through them...

Somehow I will always wish there are more people to play with who understand...

Damn that tragedy.

Atleast enough time has gone by that sparking another wild flair might be in order.

Michael Alig worked his ass off in the beginning. People want to dismiss that. He created a scene and people bought into it. Many blamed Warhol for the destructive lives his superstars took on. Angel was after all a drug dealer. Last I checked that isn't exactly a victimless crime. Dealers live by the sword and die by the sword everyday. Alig had backup that day, Angel didn't. Would the tune be any different if Alig had been killed?

Kitten, I just looked you up online and you seem to be somewhat worldy and intelligent. That makes it all the more shocking to me that you think it's OK to kill someone because he sold drugs.

I am constantly horrified by how easily some people are to excuse murder because the guy threw cool parties.

Michael did not create "club kids" People were dressing up and going out way before he got here. There were tons of parallel scenes happening at the same time as his. To name a few: Sussanne Bartsch parties, Lee Chappel events, Jackie 60, Pyramid. And, don't forget, he killed a man, shot him full of drano, chopped him up, and threw him in the river, and then joked about it. I guess you like George Bush too. There are tens of thousands dead because of him so he must be way cooler than Michael Alig

I realize that for many people who weren't here that your only frame of referance is that movie and that book. Mainstream media is only interested in the underground when there is a selling point like a celebrity connection or a murder. Don't be lazy and let one movie shape history for you. Find out about the real artists and innovators on the scene.
Maybe I'm wasting my breath. If you are so amoral that you think murder is cool or excusable maybe it's not worth arguing with you. It's like trying to debate a Jesus freak.

I was on MySpace this week and there was a fake Michael Alig profile up. SO many idiots are leaving messages of encouragement, wishing him good luck, hoping he gets out and throws more parties, etc. It's bad enough that they can't spot an obviously fake profile, but it's so much worse that he's their hero. I guess it's the same mentality that attracts people to cults, I dunno.

Well said Missy. Don't waste your breath. It's like Michael jJackson fans or like you said Jesus freaks. They live in their own world without a clue as to the real truth.

Well said Miss Understood! I second that emotion.
Michael was - as all of us who were THERE know - was just a drop in the pond of so much going on at that time. Glorious as he was back then... still just another struggling 'artiste'.
It's obnoxious to trivialize Angel who was hardly a live by the sword kinda guy (for anyone who knew him... I remember him as a sweet, mellow guy - so MANY people were 'dealers' back then in the clubs). The vicious way Angel was killed and cut up was pure evil. Michael is no dif than any other Rikers criminal the fact that he has followers is just as bonkers as those chicks who fall for an marry serial killers.
NEXT!

I met/knew michael alig and james st. james in n.y.c. when they were organizing those great underground parties of theirs in public places like the upper west side highway one and the one at the old elevated train tracks on the lower west side an another great on in the subway station on 23 or 28 st. on the west side amongst others and also ofcourse i attended many of the wed. night disco 2ooo at the limelight theese two guys brought back a lot of the fun that was dying out in n.y.c. around that time, at least for me they brought life back to n.y.c. night life and they made my existance a lot more bearable, their parties were great, period. now waht happened with angel, who i never met, or maybe i did , but i dodn`t remember, was ofcourse a big targic mistake, maybe one of you will jump all over me for maybe not using a more sorrow sounding expression, and ofcourse we all would like to express our condolances to angels family and friends , and i would also like to add that i`m hispanic, but i`m not gonna turn this into a, "white man is the devil"-race issue because you all know there is no need for that, but one man who probably contributed alot to making those parties fun is dead and another two men who also made those parties fun are in prison for killing angel, may angel rest in peace. i hope micahel gets out soon and gets back to doing what he does best , which is trowing the most fun parties in n.y.c., because after all a man has the right to make a living in the way he chooses to do it. i hope you all dodn`t take this as me making out like the killing of a human being is not wrong and should go unpunished but alot of my friends from the old days of lower east side (1977-1991)have spent time in prison for commiting crimes due to the drug problems they faced, a couple for manslaughter, while others for robbery,theft etc... you all know what i mean, what happenned between angel and michael was because of drug a drug problem and being high on a drug(s) at the time that it happened, bad mouthing michael won`t bring angel back, and michael still has a life ahead of him, maybe we should be glad he does...
porno

Well put Anna Nicole and everyone else, you took the word right out of my mouth and this topic will never be a one-sided affair. None of us are pure or wise or good and some of us may not be pure evil either and some or either good or bad based on opinion alone.

It's so funny to see how everyone can sit here and bad mouth someone that they were once friends with. No matter what has happened, what gives anyone the right to judge someone for good or bad? I just can't believe how many people go out of there way to say something or make a board or topic to express such negativity. Even if the people knew or didn't know him, does that give you a right to judge someone else's life or actions? No, so when you are judge-because what goes around comes around-don't get upset. Think about all the judging you did and ask yourself if you were in the right. No, you were not. Don't dwell on the past or negativity.

U know that's so true...let's bygones be bygones... u kill someone one day, lets just wipe the slate clean the next... u chop someone up so be it.... u lied about it to the police and let someones family be tortured about the whereabouts of their son... well que sera. I agree he threw great parties and we all had a hoot at them so lets just join hands and be jolly and just not judge him for murder, mutulations, lies and deceit and lack of remorse.

This is the problem with ... I don't even have a name, let's call it "Lazy Political Correctness".

Intelligent people try to spread an idea, like, lets say, the fact that race does not make a person superior. So the idea spreads that we should not judge a person by his or her race, because it doesn't determine their personality or integrity.


Then we expand on that: ethnicity, gender, sexual orentation, these things do not make a person better or worse, smarter or dumber, more or less honest or competant.

But then the catch phrases start, like "Don't judge people." And lazy people who follow catch phrases without thinking of the logic behind them don't know how to apply that.

The idea is not to judge people based upon aspects that do not shape a person. People should be judged not by their race, ethnicity, orientation, or gender, but by their opinions and their actions. It's wrong to say "I don't like black people" It's okay to say "I hate Adolf Hitler." Or "Ann Coulter is a cunt!"

One should use judgement, good judgement, everyday. Use good judgement when it comes to making friends, doing business, and crossing the street. And, Mizz. O. I think you should consider use better judgement when it comes to taking up causes.

Missy U...You trully have a great brain in that colorful head of yours. You should take up teaching. The children could learn a lot from you my dear.

Thanks... sorry for my perhaps harsh bitch but I just am drained by this blind support for him. Well put Miss U.

It seems as though everyone here is like a piranha ready to attack. People are entitled to their own opinions, hence the point of a message board. How can anyone put anyone down for speaking their mind? I said it was not right to judge, this is what I think. Everyone here has their own opinion. Just because someone comes on to voice their mind, doesn't mean you have to go around bashing them. I could go around bashing everyone here if I wanted, yet I am not that type. If I wanted I could judge Anna, she's no angel. Who is she to judge? Who is anyone to judge? You can't change anyone's mind on how they think. No use in approaching anything in such a rude way. You people have a lot of hate bottled inside, whether it is on this topic or in life in general. You don't go around speaking so negatively on something that happened 10 yrs. ago. It didn't happen to you, so why are you so worried about it? Everyone here is dwelling on the past. It's just funny to see that just as I am writing a message on the past, you are as well. I just feel as though I have to post because you people are wrong.

Apologies if I was harsh. Again, I am just sadly drained and disappointed when people draw the line of what is acceptable behavior and what is not morally acceptable (I.E. killing people). It DOES matter no matter how long ago it is - just as much as the holocaust DOES still matter today (and I'm not Jewish and I wasn't there) - It matters what happens around the world to people globally. It DOES take a village. And it's important to have your own standards and draw your own line. It's not about being negative; it's about standing up for who you are and where u personally has to draw the line. I can't say that I can be passive or dismissive about a terrible crime such as murder – even if my own son was the criminal. People I believe have to be responsible for their actions. He could well have been a visionary in clubs or someone you might want to idolize. But admiration aside – you have to realize that he killed someone and that is something that no matter how u look at it is WRONG and NEGATIVE and no way an action you can be dismissive of. It does matter what he does even though his actions don't directly affect me. Perhaps this poem might help u understand why am passionate about this
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

RE-read Miss Understoods words and read them again and think about them

No-one's stopping you, MizOp, from becoming a big Michael Alig groupie (along with some others, no doubt) and joining the legions of killer groupies, eager to send him fruitcakes and all your love and such. Why don't you put your energies into that, and report back to us on how gratifying it is to make friends with such as he?

In the meantime, let us tell you that it DID happen to us. You will not convince anyone here, many of whom were Limelighters and knew the guy and partied with him, including our beloved Daddy, that he is anymore cool.... And when we saw him in the Party Monster Documentary (not the film) CONFESSING to murder and gigglng, that was it.
It was beyond.

It's like people who think the Mafia are cool, and just like the TV show the Sopranos... glamourous. All you need is one REAL pass with the REAL guys, and you know there is a HUGE black line you'd cross to be their pal.

I'm considering you are possibly under 18 years of age.
Regards.

In our species, MizOpinionated, there is a strict proscription against the taking of another's life.
It's older than Hammurabi, older than Cain and Abel, older than Osiris and Seth even. Perhaps it is because life is viewed as an inexplicable gift from the unknown without that we view this act as the most heinous crime there is. In other words, if life is a divine gift, how dare any one of us take it away from another of our kind?
In fact we now view murder as such a serious crime that there is no statute of limitations on bringing the act's perpetrator to justice.

There is also the question of reponsiblity. We believe that each person is responsible for his or her actions, no matter if drugs, booze or whatever cloud the senses.

Perhaps that is why we react so strongly. We are only being human.

Miz, you are sounding like the Catholic Church. Everyone who doesn't agree with you is "bashing" you.

This is a great example of, what I like to call hijacked politacal correctness as opposed to lazy political correctness. It's when people or groups misuse terms in defense of themselves. Generally this involves the right wing adopting the terms of the left.

The term gay bashing is used to describe people who go out and beat up people simply because they are gay. It may also be applied to people who attempt to pass laws which deny gay people their cival rights.

The term catholic bashing is generally applied to people who don't agree with the Church's politcal positions. If one expresses an opinion supporting the separation of church and state, (s)he is likely to be accused of Catholic bashing. It's a way of trying to find a political rationalization to use against people who don't agree with you.

Again, it's a catch phrase. "Bashing" is generally considered bad, so, even though I don't understand the meaning of the word, I'll use it and everyone will rush to my side.

Listen Miz, I'm not bashing you. I don't know you. But, while you are making such a strong point about your right to have an opinion, you seem to be so freaked out that we have opinions too. Disagreement is far from bashing. No one has tried to censor your comments. When you express an opinion in a public forum you will hear disagreemeents. That's how we learn from eachother.

Opinions are fine, and voicing your opinions are great too, however, making the way some of you go about doing it seems as though you are bashing or attacking. I am no groupie, never have been to anyone, nor will I be. I am over 18, in fact I am over 21, and I don't mean by a month. Yes, and hatches, you can preach the bible, but the bible states that you shouldn't judge people, they will be judged by God. There is so much more to this, and so much more to the hatred.

MizOpionated:
I can be the judge. I was there. I knew Angel, I knew Micheal, I knew Robert. These were real people with real lives who were loved by many, had families, boyfriends, best friends. It was a tragedy caused by the out of control drug use and greed of a spoiled rotten pedofile who only cared about himself ( Michael) who bragged about his evil deed and then tryed to get away with it. But in this shameless self centered generation that we live in I am sure he will get out of jail and attempt to cash in on his 15 minutes of fame only to find out that the only people who care about him are mindless imbeciles. The fame that came from making a movie about all of this has somehow made it seem glamourous and forgivable. Well it is neither, not then or now even 10 years later. And might I add that if you find us all so negative and disagreeable here on the Motherboards may I suggest you spend some time reading "Beams to Bobby" where the positive and loving support of this community of individuals helped to save a life rather than take one.

Bobby, MissU, MizO, Hatches and Anna, you all once again make me happy that as you debate, you reminde me that this is what true democracy is. There will never be a person in the world who has the same opinion as the person next to them. It's easy to judge and hate certain people and things, true. Think about this though: Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme assassinated (or tried to) Gerald Ford, and she was under the influence of Charlie Manson. It's a fucked up world and sometimes that creates fucked up people that's for sure. Who can say what's right or wrong? And who in the whole world can say that they don't judge people for whatever they are or whoever they are? As I wasn't there Bobby, so in the end I can't really judge, now can I? Still it's a fascinating topic one that will be debated by anyone and everyone.

Of course u can judge this is FACT - Why is everyone trying to be so 'cool' here so dismissive of a real life murder... jeez.

I don't know MizO, I wasn't preaching the bible, but was describing a moral thread that runs through humanity predating the Biblical story of Cain & Abel.
The Code of Hammurabi was set down by the first ruler of the Babylonian empire ca. 1780 BCE.
The Egyptian tale of Osiris and his murder and dismemberment by Seth is even older-- probably ca. 2500 BCE. There is also the even older Sumerian Murder Of Dumuzi tale, from which all murder/resurrection stories may have been born.

So, it's not just a Judeo-Christian thing. And I am not a follower of either of those particular schools of belief, but...

In the biblical tale, Cain screams out, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

And the unspoken answer is, of course, "Yes!"

Your bit from the bible BTW about "judging" concerns something else indeed... and has nothing to do with murder, or judges in courtrooms.

That bit in Matthew: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged..." seems to be about hypocrisy.

I have actually just "tuned in" to this topic. Michael always treated me well. Paid better than anyone else at a time when I really needed money. That said however, he did something that NOBODY has a right to do. He took another persons life. he took away somebody's child, somebody's brother. It's the people who are left behind that truly suffer the most. I knew Michael and Angel. I have never watched Party Monster. Although Michael did good by me on some small level, the bigger picture is he is a murderer and sociopath. Traits that shouldn't be glorified or respected. While this happened 10 years ago, a mother has had to watch the calendar with dread as her dead son's birthday comes and goes. Instead of thinking about Michael in the equation, take a moment and think of Angel and his family. It puts it into perspective a bit.

Murder is a no-no, even if one is a friend of the murder. But do I really have aright to say it was wrong, since I wasn't there to witness the Rise and Fall of Michael Alig and th Club Kids (if you really want to make it sound somewhat like a Bowie album...)

One thing to remember is that Michael Alig is NOT Macaulley Calkin.

quote:

Originally posted by MizOpinionated:
It seems as though everyone here is like a piranha ready to attack.

Muddah Mary, you call this discussion board judging? U should try locking horns with The Donald. That is judging.

I just love the irony of the person who keeps chiming up that everyone else is judging them. That in itself, is a total judgement on all those people . . . you are judgement fixated. I bet you eat a BALANCED diet. Tee hee.

quote:

Originally posted by MizOpinionated:
Even if the people knew or didn't know him, does that give you a right to judge someone else's life or actions?

PS Fine - if you say so. But da judge in his murder trial DID JUDGE HIM. He was judged by society and civilization and a court of law to be a murderer. And those of us who did know him and Angel and everyone else who's lives were negatively impacted DO get to state our opinions, whether or not U judge those opinions to be invalid. The FACT is he is a MURDERER - not a "kewl dude." Sheeesh. Is this guy related to Trump or something?

But as the saying goes "U B the judge." And lordie knows, U WILL B, U WILL B.